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| Kirigakure's changes; From Blood Mist to just Mist, why? | |
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| Topic Started: Jul 25 2009, 07:57 PM (2,258 Views) | |
| MasamuneSeven | Jul 25 2009, 07:57 PM Post #1 |
The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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The once proud Blood Mist Village is no more. They are now only the Mist. Kirigakure (mist village) has made some major changes as far as rules, regulations, and especially exams go. Why do you think that is? Do you think it was the 5th Mizukage? Or something to do with Zabuza? Maybe both of them? Nobody really knows, but lets try to find out. |
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| Sardaukar | Jul 25 2009, 08:05 PM Post #2 |
Hit Girl
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Kakashi said back during the early part of the Wave Mission that Zabuza's massacring of the academy students forced Mist to undergo a reform (chapter 14). Zabuza killing over a hundred of his academy classmates forced the village's elders to reform the graduation exercise of killing your best friend. That's why they changed their name. |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 25 2009, 08:07 PM Post #3 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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So was it Madara who changed their outlook or was it the 5th? |
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| Sardaukar | Jul 25 2009, 08:13 PM Post #4 |
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Hit Girl
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Unknown, though possible that Madara as a former Mizukage instituted the violent practices and the current Mizukage ended them. |
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| Twilight_Ninja | Jul 25 2009, 08:13 PM Post #5 |
Jounin
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I believe the Godaime said, "The nightmare days of the Yondaime are over and we are no longer the Blood Mist Village." I think Madara may have been the Yondaime and it was the Godaime who changed Mist from its literally bloody procedures. Edit: Sardaukar beat me to the punch. Edited by Twilight_Ninja, Jul 25 2009, 08:14 PM.
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 25 2009, 08:18 PM Post #6 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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So it was changed when zabuza was like 5-6ish? cause i thought that suigetsu was in the blood village when orochi got his hands on him |
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| Itazuk<3Rukia | Jul 25 2009, 08:20 PM Post #7 |
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Chuunin
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Well, Madara might be Yondaime Mizukage because Ao was not too old, he still remembers the stuff that happened. The Fifth Mizukage should not be so new like Gaara, probably had been longer in Mizukage office than Gaara had been. |
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| Sardaukar | Jul 25 2009, 08:24 PM Post #8 |
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Hit Girl
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According to Kakashi, the village instituted the reforms ten years before the series began. When Zabuza first appears, he is 26, so he would have been sixteen during the reforms, and 15 during his massacre. Strangely, the images in the manga show a boy of about ten, unless Zabuza had serious growth spurts. |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 25 2009, 08:27 PM Post #9 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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He is a demon after all....... |
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| Salamanca | Jul 25 2009, 08:30 PM Post #10 |
Jounin
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So Zabusa tried to kill the 5th mitzukage instead of the 4th mitzukage because she changed the Mist |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 25 2009, 08:33 PM Post #11 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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i'd say so, Zabuza was basically made to be a blood mist ninja. he's violent and like to kill. THe change could have made him mad. Maybe Kisame too. They probably wanted to return Kiri to its former glory, and Zabuza still wanted to up til he died. Zabuza was dedicated to Blood Mist and i think that she is the one who made the changes. Probly the ones that Madara instated. |
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| Mechalich | Jul 25 2009, 09:12 PM Post #12 |
Scientist-nin
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Zabuza's little massacre stunt was surely not the only reason for the Mist village's gradual change in perspective. In fact, given the stated timeframe it may well have been a tail-end incident with the village's attitudes already changing and Zabuza's actions eliminating one of the final remaining 'Bloody Mist' traditions. The overall change actually probably has a lot to do with the outcome of Mist's 'Bloodline Purges.' The eliminated the bloodline-bearing clans within their populace, successfully. While doing so is no doubt a horrid action, it would have, as a long term effect, drastically increased the internal stability of the village by removing one of the great inherent biases to peace within that particular segment of the ninja world. When your population no longer has one portion that is genetically superior to the rest and everyone else still does, its going to be quite easy to have a lot more presence of solidarity and order. It's not pleasant to think about but ethnic segregation, whether by peaceful or genocidal means, does create localized peace among human populations. |
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| PlasmaNin | Jul 25 2009, 09:32 PM Post #13 |
HAPPYNESS ...
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True, and it seems any missing-nin from the Mist introduced so far seem to love violence (Zabuza, Suigetsu, Kisame), which means the bloody-mist-preferring ninja must all have left after the reforms. Well, maybe instead, Zabuza actually tried to kill the Fourth Mizukage. Well, it's said to be that Fourth must have been the worst Mizukage, though how he is worst remains unspecified. It could be that enough people complained about the massacre (and we're not sure as to who was mizukage at that time), Madara had to change it. Zabuza's attempt at acoup would have been for other reasons. It would show how bad things got with him in charge. Edited by PlasmaNin, Jul 25 2009, 09:34 PM.
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| GokakyuNoJutsu | Jul 26 2009, 12:43 AM Post #14 |
Genin
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I don't agree with that statement at all. The "localized peace among human populations" that you speak about is never created, and it certainly doesn't exist in places that are ethnically homogeneous. We live in a world where power (politics) dictates everything, and this is also true in Naruto's world. If people in the manga were made to be genetically equal, done by eliminating all of the superior bloodline people like the Mist Village did, then there will still be inequality in education and finance. People can be of the same ethnicity, but if there remains an inequality in education and wealth, then that inequality will fuel an animosity that at best undermines peace and at worst leads to war. And if all of the social aspects were equal, people would fight over ideology. And in our world and in the Narutoverse, the one thing that prevents peace from happening is ideology, or rather, people being intolerant of others who subscribe to a different world outlook and philosophy. If everyone can be made to think the same, then you'd have a place of high solidarity and order. To achieve that, a "shogun," "strongman," "chief," or "Kage" will emerge, and to control the people, rules will be established. In the end, the bias of nepotism and other forms of favoritism will be constructed. Some people will reject the status quo on principle, some will reject the status quo because they want to become the "Kage" boss. There is no evidence in our world or in the Narutoverse that ethnic segregation promotes localized peace among human populations. Humans use "ethnicity" as a convenient way to control people and to placate personal biases. This is politics. It is in the human nature to play the game of politics, and peace cannot, and does not, foster in a world of competition. If everyone is identical in ethnicity, then something else other than ethnicity will be exploited by a shogun "Kage" to rule over the people. Yes, people fight over ethnic differences, but people from the same ethnic background also fight amongst themselves over other societal matters. "Race" is simply a social construct, and people construct social walls to assert power and control, which results in a perpetual cycle of discrimination. That creates animosity, not localized peace. And with respect to this manga, Itachi and Madara both agreed to carry out the genocide of their Uchiha clan for ideological reasons. Itachi was anti-war and the Uchiha clan wanted to start a war, so that ideological difference prompted Itachi to wipe out his clan. Madara wanted to wipe out the Uchiha clan as an act of revenge stemming from the fact that the Uchiha clan historically disagreed with Madara's clan-first ideology. While wiping out the Uchiha clan had the effect of eliminating an imminent security threat, it did not have the effect of creating a localized peace amongst Konoha's human population. (Danzo and Orochimaru threatened that localized peace by breaking the law over ideological reasons). Also in terms of this manga, it is made in Japan, and Kishi undoubtedly is influenced by the motherland. Japan has a context with this manga, which is true due to the obvious fact that Kishi is ethnically and nationally Japanese. Almost 100 percent of the people in Japan are ethnically Japanese. But that hasn't stopped Japanese people from constructing a social division, the burakumin, which was based on occupation. So in Japan, if your great-great grandfather was an undertaker of pure Japanese ethnicity, then your great-great grandfather was a burakumin, and that means you are a burakumin, and that means you will suffer discrimination, even though you are 100 percent Japanese. Differences are bound to lead to biases, and biases are bound to lead to discrimination, and so it goes with this manga. If two Mist Village ninjas are of equal status, that in no way implies or guarantees that both ninjas will be treated equally. That will be decided by politics. Sometimes actions are so reprehensible that they shift public opinion and cause for the status quo to change. What Zabuza did was so reprehensible that it prompted forces to rise up and change the way the Mist Village functioned. Even though Kishi hasn't told us the full story, he's told us enough to know that the Mist Village underwent a period of internal strife and that the anti-Bloody Mist faction came out victorious, resulting in a government and regime change. That larger fight was clearly waged over differences in ideology, not differences in genetics. In any case, the Mist Village was bound to get sucked into the manga's trend of villages becoming arbiters of peace. In this manga, Naruto's actions are destined to have the long-term effect of drastically increasing the internal stability of all villages, big and small. There's no doubt that Naruto's actions will eventually create a globalized peace among human populations. However, in the real world there will never be a localized peace among human populations. It won't happen in an ethnically heterogeneous place like the United States, and it won't happen in an ethnically homogeneous place like Japan. Equalizing race and ethnicity does not equalize opinions, and that's why there will never be peace in our non-Shonen world. |
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| saan | Jul 26 2009, 01:10 AM Post #15 |
^__^
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Madara's position is a big factor here. I was under the impression that he might have FOUNDED Hidden Mist, he may have been multiple Mizukage given his immortality. Kisame's is another one as he was happy to see Madara revealed. Suigetsu's reaction to Kisame and his stated goal of taking all the swords mean its likely Zabuza was at odds with the other Swordsman as well the Mizukage. Its likely that the Fourth Mizukage was the one Zabuza was attempting to overthrow as the current one seems to be far too young. Its likely that the change in leadership occured after the start of the series possible during the wave arc which would make Zabuza a bit more tragic... _____________ The Bloodline purges may have taken place with the calculation that they'd make for a formidable enemy in the future, that is if Madara was responsible. Another possibility being after losing his clan's support and being defeated by the Senjuu he developed a hatred of bloodlines. Its curious though given the capabilties of enemy villages destroying a bloodline is likely the LAST thing you want to do though Mist, being isolated, is a unique case. It may be a case of Madara simply trying to destroy the concept of the Kage and the 5 great villages entirely. Its also likely the reason was simply fear of the capabilities of the bloodline... it might have even been due to certain bloodlines choosing the align with Madara similar to the Uchiha. I expect we'll get more info as with Madara, Kisame, Zabuza, and Suigetsu all having related histories... we did meet a third swordsman as well... I wonder if we'll meet anymore... I actually kind of want to see Suigetsu collect all the swords like he intends to. |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 26 2009, 07:09 AM Post #16 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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If only among what is left of the population. And if only for a moment. |
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| Shodaime of S.S.D.D. | Jul 26 2009, 07:17 AM Post #17 |
Ninja Academy Student
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The Godaime Mizukage could have just come in to power very recently, as that Ao guy seems to still hold on to some aspects of the old regime. As for Madara he could have actually been the Shodaime Mizukage or Nidaime when he left though you can't rule out the possibility of him being sandaime mizukage. |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 26 2009, 07:25 AM Post #18 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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I say he was Shodai, and that he made the village around the time when he lost to Hashirama. So he too could have a village and an army |
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| Mechalich | Jul 26 2009, 03:52 PM Post #19 |
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Scientist-nin
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In a perfect sense, of course it doesn't. However, I meant the comment in a relative sense. Yes there are other sources of conflict besides ethnic ones, but removing ethnic heterogeneity as a source of conflict is still removing a source of conflict. It's one less problem the remaining system has to address.
Social construct or not (and depending on how you interpret the terms this may or may not be the case), different societies, whether based around ethnicity, culture, religion, or whatever, are going to have different values and therefore they will conflict with each other because of these value differences in addition to all the normal reasons people have for fighting amongst themselves. To use a crude example: when thousands of Christian warriors went to seize the holy land from the Muslims in the Crusades power, wealth, and all the everyday common factors were very important, but the fact that they were fighting the infidels was pretty significant in fanning the flames too. Most of the most brutal conflicts today and throughout human history have been comprised of an ethnic element. Also, it's important to note that, in the world of Naruto, the differences between the bloodlines and everyone else are anything but 'simply a social construct.' They have real abilities that cannot be utilized by other people, making them a super-race. There is a biological imperative that generates competition between the two populations, because they can't both occupy precisely the same niche at the same time. So, when the run of the mill Mist ninja drove their bloodlines to extinction they removed one of the greatest obstacles to running an orderly ninja society.
Public opinion? There is no public opinion in Naruto. The masses are utterly powerless before a regime of supermen who can do what they want without any repercussions save from among their own. Zabuza's actions are more likely to have triggered a shift in public policy because of the practical consequences, ie. crud, our little only blooded students get to graduate from our academy melee just blew up in our face we'd better try something else, than any real ideological change. After all, they still made him a ninja and he rose to the rank of jounin and a position in the Seven Swords. He was admired and respected in the village, and that wasn't so very long ago. The internal strife Kishimoto talks about almost certainly happened before Zabuza joined the village. The bloodline purges occurred some time before Haku's birth, and Haku is only 11 years younger than Zabuza, meaning Zabuza was only a ninja for two years when Haku was born. So unless the bloodline purges occurred, Haku's mother hid everything about her past, and married a non-ninja in a 15 month crush and got knocked up by said person (9 month pregnancy), then Zabuza was joining the village after the larger paradigm shift had already occurred. |
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| The Second Hokage | Jul 26 2009, 04:34 PM Post #20 |
EDO TENSAI BI*CHS
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this convos getting deep the mist villages reforms were still stupid personally as some1 said earlier getting rid of the bloodlines in a sense weakened them why get rid of ur best men. Im sure zabuza was trying to kill that women for her changes to the village |
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| MasamuneSeven | Jul 26 2009, 09:22 PM Post #21 |
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The only man he couldn't kill, was the only man who couldn't die. - MasamuneSeven
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I have stated this before in theories, but i decided to repost it here, due to how relevent it is with the topic. Madara, could also be the first Mizukage. Leaf is the oldest village, it never says which is the second oldest. He may have made Kiri so that he could have an army against hashirama. It would make sense. Also why the village was so cruel. Mist and Ninja was like Russia and Spetsnaz. They both physically attack their soldiers, are infamous, ruthless, and the perfect warriors. Madara was building an army, maybe even before the valley of the end battle. He later returned to Kiri and made himself the Mizukage again. but he left, right when the Kyubi attacked Konoha again. His failure made him decide to help create hte Ataksuki, which would make him even more powerful. He would use the demons' power to obliterate Konoha, he would already have an army made, Kirigakure. He could then rule the world or some other cliche thing like that. Good theory, eh? |
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| GokakyuNoJutsu | Jul 26 2009, 11:23 PM Post #22 |
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Genin
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@Mechalich: I can't say I disagree with your point, now that I see where you were coming from. Yes, the ethnic component is a huge factor that leads to conflict. Eliminating ethnic differences would get rid of one of society's most divisive components, and while other sources of tension would still exist, I do agree with your position that the local population would likely be more stable in a homogeneous setting as compared with a heterogeneous one. In terms of Kiri and the whole bloodline purge thing, I hope Kishi fleshes the details out for us on that, but your take on it sounds as if it could be right on the money. Given the known ages of the characters, it would make a lot of sense if Kiri's internal strife all occurred before Zabuza emerged as a Bloody Mist shinobi. |
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| Yuuhi Kisuke | Jul 29 2009, 09:10 AM Post #23 |
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Jounin
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Since the spoilers that the 2ch are almost always true then the 4th Mizukage is nonother than Yaguura the Sanbi Jinchuuriki, although he doesnt seem very aggressive to be the ruler of the Bloody Mist!! |
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| horyo | Jul 29 2009, 10:00 PM Post #24 |
Darwinian Rivalry
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Ripped:
I don't believe Ao upheld that tradition of bloody slaughter; to clarify, I mean that he might have gone through it, but not support it. And essentially, Zabuza was responsible for the end of that gruesome ceremony; the Fifth was most likely the one who advocated an end to it. Other factors that would have ended it was the decrease in manpower. If the Hidden Mist were to be recognized as a powerful nation, it should have a copious military supply; the second issue is that the "kill-your-best-friend-day" could lead to a rise of mistrust between Ninja teams, critically hindering their cooperation and contribute even more to the loss of manpower as well as failures in missions. Edited by horyo, Jul 29 2009, 10:03 PM.
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| dragonblade | Jul 29 2009, 10:11 PM Post #25 |
Jounin
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Or the "kill-your-best-friend-day" could have made more emotionless ninjas who wouldn't comprimise missions for their friends safety....kinda of like Kakashi before he changed.... |
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